The ‘Mad Men’ Season That Almost Wasn’t: An Interview With Matthew Weiner

Part 1
By DAVE ITZKOFF


Get ready to disconnect your rotary telephone, pour yourself a cocktail or 10 and tell your secretary-turned-fiancée you won’t be receiving any visitors: in two weeks, “Mad Men” returns for its fifth season on AMC after a 17-month absence. When we last saw the men and women of the struggling Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce agency in a new installment of the show – in October 2010 – the year was 1965 and Don Draper (played by Jon Hamm) had made a seemingly out-of-nowhere offer of marriage to his assistant and nanny, Megan (Jessica Paré); Betty (January Jones) was at a crossroads; Peggy (Elisabeth Moss) was in ascendance; Joan (Christina Hendricks) was pregnant with a child that may have been fathered by Roger (John Slattery); Lane (Jared Harris) was British; and Pete (Vincent Kartheiser) was a win-at-all-costs jerk.
Iris Schneider for The New York Times Matthew Weiner, executive producer and creator of “Mad Men,” in his office at the Los Angeles Center Studios.

What has since happened only a few people can say (and aren’t saying). But in brutal, present-day reality, this season premiere follows a hard-fought negotiation between Matthew Weiner, the “Mad Men” creator and show runner, and AMC and Lionsgate, the studio that produces it, a dispute during which Mr. Weiner says he quit the series.

In an article in the Arts & Leisure section this weekend, Mr. Weiner discusses the resolution of this off-camera drama and how he and his colleagues have been preparing for the new season. In this first installment of a two-part excerpt from that interview, he shares his thoughts on Season 5 of “Mad Men” and explains how he almost walked away from it all.
Q.

Have you been feeling the absence of “Mad Men” in the same way as the audience? Was there a period of readjustment you had to go through when you went back to work?
A.

I like to think the way the audience does, and it’s a been a long time and I’m bummed about that. But I also feel like I miss my people. I know how I felt when I got to back to work, and got to start working on the stories and see people showing up in makeup and hair and dusting off the sets. Whatever events that were out of my control – the ones that were in my control have conspired so that people, by the time [the premiere] gets here, might have forgiven us. That’s why I have a two-hour premiere. I did not want to be gone. Here is a double helping. Stuff yourself. Don’t be like that snake that Don talked about and choke on it.
Q.

Did you feel you had to do anything to reset the stage for viewers, to remind them who these characters are?
A.

I will never do that. I love that feeling I used to get with “The Sopranos,” where I would see a character and say, “When did that happen? Did I miss an episode?” And what you realize is, those people are going on with their life. This is a separate season. They’re all the same people. Those things really happened to them. I’m not telling the story of Don being divorced and punishing himself and sinking into liquor and losing Anna and becoming close with Peggy and almost losing the business. That was the story of Season 4. And honestly, it’s a TV show. No matter what happens, you’ll be able to understand it. It’s not “Finnegans Wake.” There’s people, they’re in costumes, they’re kissing, they’re arguing.
Q.

The fourth season ended with Don’s surprising decision to propose to his secretary, Megan. What did that story line mean to you? Was it meant to show Don’s impulsiveness, that he would chose her over Dr. Faye, who seemed a better match for him?
A.

I think it was very abrupt for people that he suddenly did this. It seemed very impulsive. But a man of that age and era will not stay on their own. And in the end, the choice was a youth versus age thing. It’s not about the substance of the people. Faye is substantive; we don’t know anything about Megan, if she’s not substantive. Faye is saying, “Grow up, get a lawyer, become the man that you are.” Megan is saying: “I don’t care who you are. You can make yourself who you want to be.” And I think that we were faithful to that choice, that Don wanted to be in that lavender haze, as we described it, of having someone look at him who doesn’t know him, who admires him, who represents what youth brings to every society, which is hope. As opposed to, “My feet hurt.” That mind-set versus, “You know what? Let’s get roller skates.”
Q.

There was also a scene, in the Season 4 finale, in which it looked like Betty was open to the possibility of patching things up with Don.
A.

She is there to reconcile with him in some way. We see her before Don comes in, primping, and we know how she feels. And we saw her fight with Henry and Don didn’t. But I think that she offers herself to him. Don on some level enjoys saying to her that it’s too late. I always quote Lisa Albert, one of my writers. After Betty ran off with Henry, before we even did Season 4, she said, “My feeling is, this character of Betty Draper will learn as little as possible.” And I think that’s really what it is. And her running back to Don, let’s face it – that was a bad marriage. He’s a terrible husband. But what about the compromise of life?
Q.

Does it ever feel to you like Betty has to bear more of the audience’s resentment than other characters? She also had that devastating scene in the finale where she suddenly fired the family maid, Carla.
A.

I think the audience does not like looking in the mirror and seeing a wart. We see a lot of her private behavior and her private behavior is no worse than anybody else’s. They want her to be better and I think that her beauty works against it all. They think, “You’re so beautiful and you have everything – you should put up with more.” But Betty is not a racist. I think Betty thinks everyone in the world works for her. I really do. I think she’s constantly disappointed that she can’t get good help.
Q.

Since we’re obviously not going to get into plot specifics, can you talk in general terms about how you prepare for writing a new season?
A.

What really happens is there’s about a three-week rumination period, which involves a lot of napping, a lot of holding books. Whether I’m reading them or not, I cannot say. A lot of conversation, unrelated to the show, where I think about my own life. I get a sense of where I’m going and what I think is the next part of these people’s lives. Before the premiere of Season 4, I didn’t tell anybody whether or not they had a new agency, or whether or not they’d failed. We could have come back and they could have been back at Sterling Cooper in those offices. Just taking [Don's] engagement: so is that going to go through or not? What is the next stage in this person’s life? What is the story I want to tell about that?
Q.

Are you taking input from your writers at this stage?
A.

No. The writers aren’t working yet, but I try things out on people. There are people like Bob Levinson, who is on my staff as a consultant. In 1960 he was on the Lucky Strike account at BBDO, and then he became a television agent. Before Season 4, I said: “All this stuff is starting to happen. ’64, ’65, the Watts riots, there was so much stuff going on that summer. What was the feeling?” And he goes, “Oh, you know, I had just gotten my first big raise and we were looking for a house.” And that’s the thing I always have to remember, is don’t assume that because you’re living in tumultuous times that people are not living their lives. I’ve committed to how old Don is, I’ve committed to how old Peggy is. And then Pete, Joan. And then it’s just a matter of remembering what the consequences are and trying not to repeat what I’ve done. Don’s going to start here and end here. Peggy’s going to start here and end here. It’s always about change, I’m starting to realize that that’s all that I’m writing about. And I think it’s because we are living in a time of tremendous change and you can’t pretend anymore.
Q.

So that will be a theme of the new season?
A.

There’s a line in Episode 3, which is Week 2, where somebody says: “When is everything going to get back to normal?” Who hasn’t felt that right this minute? And that is a lot of what the season is about. That sensation that, well, this is normal. I don’t think that’s my age or anything. I think that’s the state of the United States. And it’s not because we were riding so high and all of a sudden we got knocked down. It’s been a fairly steady stream of [awfulness]. [laughs] Maybe this is part of being an adult, living in a state of “this may not last forever.” Maybe I’m too much like Don and I only like the beginnings of things, I don’t know. And there’s a lot this season about every man for himself, about looking out for yourself. We know the people that need to learn that lesson but it’s really an unpleasant thing. I guess because I’m a liberal I think it’s not people’s natural instinct to be completely self-interested. It’s an ugly thing to see ambition and to see people satisfying themselves. But that’s what the story is. [pause] Does that sound juicy?
Q.

There’s a traditional model of television writing, where stories are pitched in the writers’ room, assigned to individual writers and then the scripts that come back get rewritten in the room. Is that how “Mad Men” operates?
A.

No, no, it’s not like that at all. The outline comes out of the room. Maria and André [Jacquemetton] drive the train on that. I have story ideas, people have story ideas, we break the A, B and C stories. This is all the way “The Sopranos” did it. That’s the only way I knew to do it and we have our own version of it. We cut them into strips and we tape them into an outline of like 45 beats. Some of them we assign to a writer and they go off and write a draft. I see that draft, and if I have time, I give notes. Sometimes it’s like an audition. There are people who write a draft and it’s the end of it. You say, “I don’t think this is going to work out.” But whatever happens, eventually the script comes to me and I start fresh to some degree. And then I do a draft and that goes to the room. They give me their notes, I do another draft, I do another draft, I just keep doing. If I change less than 80 percent of it, I will leave their name on it, by themselves. Now, it’s unfair on some level, because I’m deciding what I change.
Q.

Do you think that’s commonplace at other shows?
A.

Everyone who has my job does this. They don’t usually put their names on it. It was important for my mental health, to see my name on there for work that I had done almost all of, in some cases. And I never understood it, why a person would want their name on a script if they didn’t write all of it. I would never want my name on something that I did not write most of. Part of television is you get rewritten. When I wrote for David Chase, I kept saying, “I’m going to write a script he can’t rewrite.” That was my mode. Not, “You’re just going to change it anyway.” So that’s the way it works here and I’m very open about it also, and not everybody is.
Q.

Were you ever concerned, during the negotiation process, that maybe there wouldn’t be a Season 5?
A.

I quit. I had come to terms with the fact that it was over. And I always end every season like it’s the end of the show. So, yeah. There was a terror in me that someone else would come in and do it. And I don’t know how they would do it, but I would have to live with that. In the most protective and demanding way, I did not feel that it was worth going back to work to make a show that was not the show I’d been making. I had this argument with my wife, where I said: “You don’t understand – it’s not just a matter of changing the show. I don’t want to go to work and do it different. I just figured out how it works.” This is what the audience likes, these are the characters the audience likes, and this is the length of the show. And I definitely feel that the longer part of the show is part of its commercial uniqueness. And it’s a scarce product to begin with. There’s 13 a year. So you have to give them that in the form it is. It’s like changing a novel into a short story, to me.
Q.

So, just to be clear –
A.

Yes, I quit, at the negotiation. During the negotiation. And in the end, everything worked out.

In the first installment of an interview with the “Mad Men” creator and show runner Matthew Weiner, who is the subject of an article in this weekend’s Arts & Leisure section, he disclosed that at the height of a tense contract renegotiation, he quit his own show.

Since we know that’s not how the story ends, how was Mr. Weiner brought back to the table? How have his deal and other developments at AMC resonated in the television industry? Why is he such a stickler about spoilers? And how is “Mad Men” going to end? He answers most of these questions in this final excerpt.
Q.

So, just to be clear –
A.

Yes, I quit, at the negotiation. During the negotiation. I certainly told my representatives that. I don’t know if they ever told AMC that. [laughs] But I had come to terms with it. I was with my two oldest sons, and I called Jon Hamm. It was rough.
Q.

What did you tell him?
A.

I said, “I’m sorry, it’s not working out.” And the battery had just died on the phone — and my son said to me said, “Don’t worry, Dad, you’ll get another show.” It was really one of the great moments. I was so angry at the tenor of the negotiations, it had so hit me by surprise. All I could say was, I don’t want to do it. The world will know the truth when I don’t go back to work. And then they compromised, and I compromised. A little. I don’t even want to exaggerate how wonderful it’s been since then. I turned in my first episode and everyone was like: “That’s what we paid for. We’re very happy.” It worked out so well that I actually hope this is the last time I have to talk about it.
Q.

You won your fights to keep the show’s cast and running time intact, but not to have Season 5 make its premiere on AMC in 2011.
A.

I accepted that, yeah. They are a small company, they cannot put on five shows a year. But I knew that in January, at the Golden Globes, that it wasn’t going to happen. I was like, “Really?” They were like, “Go make a movie or something.” I was like, “I don’t even know if I’m coming back.” But in the end, they negotiated, businesses negotiate through lawyers. It’s like prizefighters. They talk trash. And in the end they go back to work. And for an artistic person, this can be a horrible experience that can change you. I just turned to the people who love me and started taking it out on them. [laughs]
Q.

When Kurt Sutter, the show runner of “Sons of Anarchy,” recently closed his three-season deal at FX, he wrote on his Twitter account: “no headlines, no pushed schedule, no stealing from paul.” I think we know who he was referring to.
A.

I don’t know Kurt Sutter. I’m very happy for him. I’m very supportive of creative people being paid for the work that they do. That’s my comment on it.
Q.

But are you concerned that your “Mad Men” deal might have alienated you from other industry peers?
A.

Well, the concept that I was taking money from other people at AMC is ridiculous. Frank Darabont [the former "Walking Dead" show runner] and I had a conversation a year ago about his budget being cut and what he was going to do. Vince [Gilligan, the "Breaking Bad" show runner], too. It’s very hard to turn writers against each other, believe it or not. Some people don’t think I’m deserving, the show’s too small, it’s not financially successful enough, that’s fine. I think the most striking thing about all of this is, I am an individual and my salary was revealed to embarrass me, and there’s no one on the non-artistic side whose salary is being revealed, and it is embarrassing. You can better be sure that if I’m making what you consider to be an outrageous amount of money, this is a very, very valuable property. Writers’ salaries have been going down quite steadily for the past 10 years, and my deal was one of the first things that started going up. People realize that these shows can be international cash cows and can last for 30 years.
Q.

After your “Mad Men” deal was closed, AMC had a very tough series of months where “The Killing” took some critical backlash for its season finale, “The Walking Dead” abruptly changed show runners and the “Breaking Bad” renegotiations turned ugly. Were you following these developments and did they affect you?
A.

Oh my God, absolutely. That’s my brand, I work for them. I’m so proud of the fact that they went from being the third-choice, second-run movie channel, to a competitor with HBO. But there are growing pains. They were not used to having people scrutinize anything that they did, because they’re underdogs and were kind of a charity case on some level, in the beginning. So once you start having more than one success, people really start looking at it. Between myself, Veena [Sud, show runner of "The Killing"], Vince, Frank and now Glen [Mazarra, who took over "The Walking Dead" from Frank Darabont], you’re talking about a stable of show runners who come there with some experience. And I don’t think they ever expected to have more than one thing hit. So they started having to learn the show-business part of the business. After making my pilot and seeing us go on the air, for Christina Wayne [the former AMC programming executive] to show me the “Breaking Bad” pilot, it was a thrill for me to think: “Oh my God, this is going to be on this channel, too. That’s pretty cool.”
Q.

One phenomenon that seems like it’s become more pronounced in the months since “Mad Men” has been off the air is that every network now has its signature serial drama, from “Homeland” on Showtime to “Downton Abbey” on PBS. Do you worry that you’ll have to work harder than ever to maintain the loyalty of your viewership?
A.

I am a competitive person. But more good TV is more good TV. I think this has all happened since “The Sopranos.” HBO, they’re in the same groove they’ve always been in. You’re never going to compete with “Boardwalk Empire” for many things. No one else has that business model to support that. Showtime, they’ve always had “Dexter,” they’ve had “Weeds.” I love that our absence was felt. I still don’t think anyone’s doing what we’re doing. We’re the aging show, but I still feel like I just started, and I will always fight to keep people’s interest and to hope that the show remains No. 1 in their heart.
Q.

I ask this with all due respect, but what’s the deal with your policy on spoilers?
A.

It’s very simple. I don’t understand why the critics get to have a different experience watching the show than the people who it’s really made for. I love my Agatha Christie, I love my soaps. I love “Law & Order,” where there’s a binary ending, they’re either going to be guilty or innocent. But this is a different thing. This is a story where there’s not a huge plot. There’s no gunplay. And I don’t want to dole that information out, because it is part of what’s keeping people interested. The people who really love the show, they really don’t want to know. They want a “scoop” if they are in the blogging business.
Q.

Since it’s been announced that the seventh season of “Mad Men” will be its last, are you starting to think about how you will end the series?
A.

I’ve never done this before, that’s all I’m going to tell you. I hope that in hindsight, it will look like it was all planned out. The same way I come in with an image for the end of the season, I have an image for the end of the show. But I take every season as if it’s the last season. I did not say, “Oh, I’ve got three more seasons, I’m going to plot them out right now.” I do not have the ability to do that. I took everything that I could possibly think of and did it this year. My plan always, and it’s how I pitched the show to AMC, is, let me show the difference between these people at the beginning of the ’60s and the end of the ’60s. You see how adult they are when it starts. But I guarantee you when we look back after the finale, you will say, ‘Look how young they were.’ And you will look back with nostalgia.